Curse

Avarre · Oct 11, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I disagree. Elite multimillionaire farmers in elite multimillionaire guilds are not a "horde of mediocre gamers".
Well, OK, they are, but they're elite multimillionaire mediocre players.

We should get a real hierarchy set up. I'll have cerb come back and judge whether each powerfarmer is actually skilled, and we'll sort this out.

Quote:

Sure. That's not really an argument against mixing players in RA, though, it's simply restating what I said: that ANet doesn't care about what goes on in RA.

For good reason. The only argument against syncing, really, is 'I don't like it', because nowhere is it explicitly stated that your randomly selected opponents will be random in the manner you prefer. What's next, blocking meta builds from being in the same group? Preventing skilled players that communicate from grouping? Oh, those are alright because they're randomly placed together? So are guildies who happen to be joining at the same time.

As far as PvP issues go, this is incredibly low priority, largely because nothing is actually broken - the system groups players who enter RA into groups. I'd call syncing system abuse more than an exploit, but that's all semantics.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 11, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

nowhere is it explicitly stated that your randomly selected opponents will be random in the manner you prefer.

But that's the problem: my opponents are not randomly selected. They're using a programming glitch to obtain an unfair advantage; this is what makes it different from using FOTM builds.

zwei2stein · Oct 11, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

As far as PvP issues go, this is incredibly low priority, largely because nothing is actually broken - the system groups players who enter RA into groups. I'd call syncing system abuse more than an exploit, but that's all semantics.

Technically, being able to abuse lack randonmess can lead to other, more noticeable "abuses"

Sync AB joining? less than RA-ish in scale of it being problem, people notice and don't care enough to qq about it on guru. FA/JQ, people care even less.

Syncing HA for Fame (two teams alternating in /resigning if they meet in underworld)
Syncing rated guild battles to "transfer" ratings and/or easy champ points (and do same with HB) I imagine two guilds with about same rating would be able to give each other a lot of champ points without loosing much rating (unless sync fails and they have to fight.).

lord of all tyria · Oct 11, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

It could well be an exploit, but it has pretty much no lasting consequence as I just click enter again once I've lost. Thus, I do not care.

zwei2stein · Oct 11, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of all tyria

It could well be an exploit, but it has pretty much no lasting consequence as I just click enter again once I've lost. Thus, I do not care.

And synced team must resync every 10 matches anyway.

Avarre · Oct 11, 2008, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

But that's the problem: my opponents are not randomly selected. They're using a programming glitch to obtain an unfair advantage; this is what makes it different from using FOTM builds.

From what I understand of syncing, joining all at the same time just puts you all in the same pool of players to be formed into groups. Like I said earlier, if there was some form of exploit that through a followed procedure resulted in constant results (such as the mapping exploit), that would be different. As it is, using timing in joining PvP matches has always been an abusable mechanic: halls skips, avoiding guilds, and this, none of which were against the rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Syncing rated guild battles to "transfer" ratings and/or easy champ points (and do same with HB) I imagine two guilds with about same rating would be able to give each other a lot of champ points without loosing much rating (unless sync fails and they have to fight.).

Pretty sure this would count as ladder manipulation if proven, and ANet has a precedent of dealing with that - although that was when the ladder actually meant something. The biggest difference with that and RA is that an RA loss/win has no real effect.

makosi · Oct 11, 2008, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Being able to circumvent the 'random' aspect of Random Arenas is undoubtedly an exploitation of the programming in an attempt to benefit oneself and cause a hindrance to others. Some might say 'griefing'.

The issue here is that Anet probably don't want to police such behaviour due to a number of factors:

-Limited staff/staff hours to deal with such grievances,
-Low priority probably due to the inferiority of RA in terms of PvP gameplay,
-Inability to clearly distinguish who happened to be in the same team as their guildies and who planned to sync,
-The fact that syncing does not mean auto-win (despite the theoretical advantages).

Yes, it sucks big-time to be defeated at your 7/8/9th consecutive by 4 clearly synchronized guild members with complementing builds but after all of this time there is nothing likely to be done about it.

The moral of the story is that you're encouraged and free to go ahead and abuse it because there are no penalties for doing so.

IKNOW · Oct 11, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

It's an exploit. Otherwise it would be called sync arena.

Avarre · Oct 11, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by IKNOW

It's an exploit. Otherwise it would be called sync arena.

Ursan was an exploit, because otherwise it would be called Bear versus Environment.

Yeah, that's not much help.

(I know it's not the same thing, let me make my joke)

Crimso · Oct 11, 2008, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Ursan was an exploit, because otherwise it would be called Bear versus Environment.

Yeah, that's not much help.

Yes, but Ursan didn't cause anyone to lose Vanquisher or Protector/Guardian Points. Synching causes people to lose gladiator points as Sycnh-teams as extremely difficult to defeat.

Lyle2000 · Oct 11, 2008, 02:11 PM // 14:11

I think I may have a reason why Anet says syncing does not exist. And as you would expect it has to do with the random choice. Lets think about how this works.

Every 30 seconds a RA match begins. The people who are in this match are chosen from everyone who clicked "Enter Battle" in the previous 30 seconds. The RA code then randomly pics players 1 at a time and assigns them to a team.

Knowing this having every one click join together does make it possible for you to all be on the same team, but its not becuase of some bug, its simple probibility.

For example in the last 30 seconds 12 people clicked "Enter Battle". 4 of them are part of a preset team. If you think about it, it is impossible that they all end up on different teams.

Basicly they are tacking advantage of probability. Just like buying multiple raffle tickets in a drawing. What makes in noticable in RA is the smaller number of people that they are mixed with for the random assignments.

I would bet that the exact simultaneous pressing of the button by a group has no impact. I am willing to bet that if they started at the exact 30 second mark and one of them pressed the button every 7 seconds that they would have the same chance of being on the same team as they would if they all clicked at the exact same time.

The only way areana net could stop this is to make it against the rules for people who know each other to press the "Enter Battle" button in the same 30 seconds.

I Is Special · Oct 11, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

.......Why are people defending Syncing?...

Abedeus · Oct 11, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Because... it makes Random Arenas NOT random.

isamu kurosawa · Oct 11, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Is Special

.......Why are people defending Syncing?...

Nobody is defending it.

The discussion as whether or not it is considered an exploit.

w00t! · Oct 11, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle2000

I think I may have a reason why Anet says syncing does not exist. And as you would expect it has to do with the random choice. Lets think about how this works.

Every 30 seconds a RA match begins. The people who are in this match are chosen from everyone who clicked "Enter Battle" in the previous 30 seconds. The RA code then randomly pics players 1 at a time and assigns them to a team.

Knowing this having every one click join together does make it possible for you to all be on the same team, but its not becuase of some bug, its simple probibility.

For example in the last 30 seconds 12 people clicked "Enter Battle". 4 of them are part of a preset team. If you think about it, it is impossible that they all end up on different teams.

Basicly they are tacking advantage of probability. Just like buying multiple raffle tickets in a drawing. What makes in noticable in RA is the smaller number of people that they are mixed with for the random assignments.

I would bet that the exact simultaneous pressing of the button by a group has no impact. I am willing to bet that if they started at the exact 30 second mark and one of them pressed the button every 7 seconds that they would have the same chance of being on the same team as they would if they all clicked at the exact same time.

The only way areana net could stop this is to make it against the rules for people who know each other to press the "Enter Battle" button in the same 30 seconds.

QFT. The only area I'll disagree with you is that I've never seen Anet saying that syncing doesn't exist.

Syncing is a player behavior, not a programming glitch, as you stated so well above.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 11, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyle2000

I
Every 30 seconds a RA match begins. The people who are in this match are chosen from everyone who clicked "Enter Battle" in the previous 30 seconds. The RA code then randomly pics players 1 at a time and assigns them to a team.

Synching suggests that this is NOT how teams are assembled in RA. Instead it seems as when you click "enter" you are placed in a queue, at the end of the counter the queues of all districts are concatenated, and the joint queue then divided into teams of fours.
Because you do not know how many have entered before you and the queue is divided into teams of four, there's no guarantee even a perfect enter-cancel-enter will place all four of you in the same team, but you're likely to be grouped with at least 1-2 mates.

There doesn't seem to be any intentional randomization taking place, if there was synching wouldn't exist - and it does.

jaximus · Oct 11, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

i think its funny how people get so worked up about this whole thing. you cant honestly tell me that the people who are complaining about it havent tried it before or the people that didnt know about it are trying it now. yeah its randomized and yeah timing the entrance helps a bit, but theres not 100% chance so its a bit advantageous but not to a point where a-net will do anything about it. what i find most funny is people half of the posts on here (meaning guru as a whole) are about how leet people are or how they 'farm glads.' if they are so good, how come they cant beat 'synced' teams? as i see it, ra is for people that want to pvp and dont have guildies/friends online at the time or dont have enough that are good enough to win in ta/ha/gvg. so those people should go into ta with random people and get rocked by the ta guild teams? why when they can have fun and potentially be on the same team with a friend in ra. also i would assume 90% +/- 10% (me kindly saying all of you) that are complaining about how unfair it is either a. wouldnt live against a truly random team anyway and use a 'synced' opponent as an excuse for poor skills, or b. are extremely good at pvp and find it actually offensive to the game you like. i personally am dead center on the issue because yeah i dont like getting beat up by a synced team (even though the next time i face them i know what they are gonna do and stop it) but i cant say i dont enjoy the long streaks i get when i have a synced partner.

Arkantos · Oct 11, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Is Special

.......Why are people defending Syncing?...

Because Random Arenas isn't srs bzns, although many people in this thread are acting RA is some competition with real life prizes.

I mean really, all of you are getting worked up for nothing.

Musei Karasu · Oct 11, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Syncing rated guild battles to "transfer" ratings and/or easy champ points (and do same with HB) I imagine two guilds with about same rating would be able to give each other a lot of champ points without loosing much rating (unless sync fails and they have to fight.).

Two guilds can only play each other like every other day I think. Otherwise you could end up playing the same guild over and over and over again. And that'd be pretty boring.

Lyle2000 · Oct 11, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Synching suggests that this is NOT how teams are assembled in RA. Instead it seems as when you click "enter" you are placed in a queue, at the end of the counter the queues of all districts are concatenated, and the joint queue then divided into teams of fours.
Because you do not know how many have entered before you and the queue is divided into teams of four, there's no guarantee even a perfect enter-cancel-enter will place all four of you in the same team, but you're likely to be grouped with at least 1-2 mates.

There doesn't seem to be any intentional randomization taking place, if there was synching wouldn't exist - and it does.

If you would of read my entire post your would of seen this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyle2000

For example in the last 30 seconds 12 people clicked "Enter Battle". 4 of them are part of a preset team. If you think about it, it is impossible that they all end up on different teams.

In this example I gave a case where some syncing it guaranteed. If more players had entered the chances of sync would be lower but not entirly unlikley. True randomization can still still apear to be controlable in cases like this.

When you can plan to join a RA game with player x, and it always works you are exploiting and the game is no longer random. (or everyone else has quite RA)